Transcription downloaded from https://sermon-library.fbcmustang.org/sermons/103775/delivered/. Disclaimer: this is an automatically generated machine transcription - there may be small errors or mistranscriptions. Please refer to the original audio if you are in any doubt. [0:00] This is the First Mustang Pulpit Podcast, a podcast of the weekly preaching and teaching at First Mustang.! Thank you for joining us. Our remodel on our adult wing is going very well. [0:16] ! We've had two really good weeks of work and much progress is being made. We are on schedule to be able to be finished right before the school year starts. [0:29] And so, just as a reminder, we'll continue in this kind of amended summer schedule for the next several weeks with our Sunday School for Children and Youth and Crossroads at 9, our adult seminars at 9, and our one combined service at 1030. [0:46] We'll be on track to go back to our regular two services and two Sunday School hours when school starts with promotion. And so, again, just thank you so much for your flexibility. [0:57] I've heard some really good feedback from our seminars and people that are enjoying getting to do something different, getting to learn from some different teachers. [1:08] And so, I'm so thankful for those who are teaching and thankful for all of you, just for your support and your encouragement and your graciousness during this time of our remodel. [1:20] I think you're going to be really pleased when the adult wing is completed. It's going to allow our classes so much more space. It'll be such a better situation. [1:32] Already this week, I was up there looking around and just thinking, how did we ever have adults crammed into this small space? It's going to be really, really nice. You're going to be very excited when that gets finished, which will not be much longer. [1:46] And so, we're doing Lord's Supper in a little bit. If you're over here and wondering where are the elements, Lord's Supper table is over here. We don't have any room. We've added so many extra chairs to fit everybody in here. [1:57] We had to bring that up high, but we'll be taking Lord's Supper here in just a little bit. As Joey mentioned, our students have been at Falls Creek for two weeks. And I just want to echo what he said. [2:09] You should be very, very proud of our student ministry here as a church. In a few weeks, we'll be taking our elementary students to kids camp. And we're looking forward to our elementary students getting a chance to be at camp as well. [2:25] Our summer ministry is full and busy, but so many really great things happening. And we are very excited about that. But it was not that long ago, June 24th, six years ago, that right here on this platform, I stood here with my friends Nathan and Janae. [2:47] You know Janae as Brotherton, now Anderson. And her parents, who are longtime members here, her dad is a deacon, a children's Sunday school teacher oversees our 55-plus ministry. [2:59] Janae's mom, Kathy, has been our director of our children's ministry. for 23 years. But none of that really matters anymore because the most important part about their life is their little one, Allie. [3:14] Is Allie still here? Do we take Allie to the nursery? Allie is here. So, I figure it would be okay with Kathy if I just ask Gary to stand real quick and show off Allie Anderson right here. [3:30] Lookie there. Gary's not going to hear a word I preach this morning, but it will be his favorite sermon he's ever sat through. [3:42] I can promise you that. We are so excited to have you guys here and to have sweet Allie with us. I'm so thankful. My in-laws are in town for a family wedding we had yesterday. [3:55] And so, this handsome man sitting next to my wife is the one responsible for allowing my wife to be able to know how to do everything. If you ever wondered, how did she get to know everything? [4:05] It's because she grew up right there. And so, John thought it was a good idea for Marcy to learn how to change her own oil, and it just never stopped. So, that is the biggest reason why my life is as easy as it is today. [4:22] If you are a guest with us, again, we're grateful you're here, and we hope that you know that you're always welcome here. And as a church, as Joy mentioned a moment ago, we just want to serve you and pray for you if we can, let us know how we can do that. [4:39] If you would open your Bible with me to Mark chapter 9. Mark chapter 9. If you're new with us, we're walking through the gospel of Mark. [4:49] We just study the Bible verse by verse as it was written to us and given to us. We find ourselves in Mark 9, verses 30 to 32, where Jesus speaks of His coming death and resurrection. [5:04] It's why we've sung today about the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and why we've sung about the resurrection. Just to remind you a little bit of the context of where we are in the gospel of Mark, remember in chapter 8 in Caesarea Philippi, Jesus is there with His apostles and He asks them, who do people say that I am? [5:29] And the apostles say to Jesus, well, some say that you are John the Baptist, and others say that you are Elijah. Some say you're one of the prophets. Some say that you're Jeremiah. [5:41] And Jesus says, who do you say that I am? And Peter, speaking on behalf of the apostles, rightly says, you are the Christ, the Messiah, the chosen one, the anointed one. [5:52] You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus affirms that, and then immediately after that, He tells the apostles that soon the Son of Man is going to be rejected, killed, and rise again. [6:10] So just go back for a moment to chapter 8. I just want you to see these words as Jesus spoke them. Verse 31, He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. [6:36] And He said this plainly. And so this has become increasingly a theme as Jesus is teaching in these days leading up to the cross. [6:51] The apostles, of course, as we've been studying, have a hard time comprehending exactly what He's talking about. What do you mean about dying and resurrection? Remember, the apostles would have had an understanding of a resurrection in the last days. [7:08] They would have understood that. They would have understood even that Jesus had the power to raise from the dead. They've experienced and witnessed that as well. What they could not comprehend, though, was this teaching that the Messiah Himself is going to die and be resurrected. [7:30] That just did not fit in their mind, in their understanding, in their concept of what Messiah would do and who He would be. [7:43] And so as Mark 8.32 says, Jesus spoke this plainly to them, but they had a hard time understanding it. Chapter 9, as we said a few weeks ago, Jesus takes Peter, James, and John, and they go up to the mountain. [7:59] And there, this incredible event takes place. We know as the Mount of Transfiguration, where Christ is transfigured before them, and Moses and Elijah appear. [8:13] And what is the conversation on the Mount of Transfiguration? The conversation is about Jesus coming, death, and resurrection. [8:25] And so this is a theme that Jesus is speaking of, and He's speaking of it plainly. They come down off the mountain, as we looked at last week. They encounter, as is just so real life, after this amazing experience on the mountaintop, they come down, and the first thing they see is this argument that's broken out between the scribes and the other nine apostles. [8:50] And just like happens for us so often, after great spiritual mountaintop experiences, we are thrust right back down into the valley of real life. [9:05] And so the question becomes, what is the argument? What's the debate between the apostles and the scribes? We find out that what the debate was is that there was a desperate father who had a son who was suffering from demonic attack. [9:20] The kind of symptoms he had were similar in some ways to what today we would know as epilepsy, but there is a significant difference. [9:32] And the difference is that what was happening in this father-son was not simply just a medical condition. This was a spiritual demonic attack. [9:42] And for years, since childhood, the Bible tells us, this son had been struggling with it. And so the father brings his son, trying to get to Jesus. Jesus has been up on the mountainside with the Mount of Transfiguration. [9:55] And so the remaining nine apostles are there. Well, that's good news if you're the father, because the apostles have been given the authority to cast demons out, and they've already been doing that. [10:05] And so the apostles say, we can help you. And they try to cast the demon out of the young boy, but much the chagrin of the father, for whatever reason, it did not work. [10:18] And that's what the argument was over. The scribes are using this failed mission by the apostles to try to invalidate their claims to be who they say they are and who Christ says he is. [10:33] The apostles are debating with the scribes, saying, no, we really are able to do this. And all the while, this poor son continues to suffer at the hands of this demonic attack. [10:48] And Jesus, in so much grace and tenderness, says to the father, bring the boy to me. And Jesus speaks, and he casts the demon out. [11:05] And it's an interesting situation because this debate, this courtroom scene, if you will, between the apostles and the scribes, as they both try to present their evidence of why each side is right, the reality of it is, is Jesus comes on the scene, he is able to do what he alone says he can do. [11:29] And he has the authority on his own name to cast the demon out. And the scribes are a bit embarrassed. And no doubt the apostles are embarrassed because they were unable to cast the demon out. [11:45] And so they go back into the house and privately, to try to avoid further embarrassment, the apostles say to Jesus, why could we not do this? You've given us the authority to do this, and we've done this before. [12:00] Why today could we not cast this demon out? Why today could we not cast this demon out? [12:34] And they forgot what you and I so often forget, that our experience and our knowledge and our giftedness is never, those things are never a substitute for prayer. [12:52] We must be prayerful people. And so we want to train and teach and equip you. [13:05] That's part of what these seminars are for these number of weeks, to try to equip you in a number of different topics. But please be reminded that there is no amount of education that will lead you to a place where you no longer must be prayerful. [13:24] And so right on the heels of this, we now turn our attention to verse 30, 31, and 32. [13:36] Jesus is withdrawing from the crowds as he continues to invest in training the 12. And in verse 30, it says, they went on from there and passed through Galilee. [13:50] And he did not want anyone to know, for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. [14:04] And when he is killed, after three days he will rise. But they did not understand the saying, and were afraid to ask him. [14:18] This is now the second of the three cross predictions that Mark records for us that Jesus gave. The first one we've already looked at, chapter 8, verse 31. [14:30] I want you to look at this again, and I want you, I want to read chapter 8, verse 31, and then I'm going to read again chapter 9, verse 31, and see what has been added to the prophecy Jesus gives. [14:48] Back first to Mark 8, 31. And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again. [15:03] He adds to it now in chapter 9, verse 31, the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. [15:15] And when he is killed, after three days he will rise. What's added? That he will be delivered. That's added. He's going to be delivered. [15:30] Delivered from what? Delivered to what? Delivered by whom? He's going to be delivered, and then he's going to suffer, and he's going to be killed. [15:48] We'll come back to those questions in just a moment. Turn to chapter 10, and I'll just give you a quick preview of the third and third. Upcoming prophecy of this. [16:00] Chapter 10. Verse 33. See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles, and they will mock him and spit on him and flog him and kill him, and after three days he will rise. [16:26] So what you see are each of these three prophetic teachings Jesus gives each time he adds a little more detail. [16:37] Specifically, in this second prophetic teaching in Mark 9, he's adding this detail that the Son of Man, speaking of himself, will be delivered. [16:52] So if you want to take a couple of notes this morning, let me just give you three words. These would be three words you could use to share the gospel. If you were wanting to talk to a friend or a co-worker, someone in your family that doesn't know Christ, or you just wanted to have a succinct way to share the gospel, you could use this brief outline just to remind you mentally of some things to share to help other people know the gospel. [17:21] First, write down the word delivered. Again, verse 31. Verse 30. They went on from there and passed through Galilee. [17:33] He did not want anyone to know, for he was teaching his disciples. The tense of the verb teaching here gives us a little bit of understanding that's not completely clear in our English word. [17:48] And what the tense tells us is that it's a repeated action. It's not just that he was teaching them then, it's that he's teaching continually. [17:59] This is something that is happening over and over and over. The more that Jesus is with his apostles, the more he is teaching them about the coming events of the cross. [18:11] We're probably about six months at this point in Jesus' life before the events of the crucifixion. And he's teaching them, and he's teaching them repeatedly about what is to come. [18:26] Verse 31, here's what is added. The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. [18:39] This is a bit new. Something is happening at the coming events of the cross where Jesus wants the apostles to understand that at the cross, he is being delivered. [19:03] Now, there are different ways in English we could interpret that. You could be handed over. You could be rescued from. You could be saved. [19:15] But how does the New Testament describe these events in the life of Jesus? Let me just, I just want to kind of walk you through and let you kind of see for yourself how this happens in the Bible here. [19:33] It's true that Judas, in one sense, delivers Jesus over to the religious leaders. Let me just show it to you. [19:45] Stay there in Mark 9, but turn real briefly to chapter 14. Verse 10, it says, Then Judas Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, went to the chief priest in order to betray him to them. [20:11] And when they heard it, they were glad and promised to give him money. And he sought an opportunity to betray him. And then in verse 42, there in the situation in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus says, So in one sense, it is Judas who delivers Jesus over to the religious leaders because he has prearranged this betrayal. [20:45] And he is going to take those leaders to Jesus on the night that Christ would be arrested. And in one sense, it is Judas who delivers Jesus over. [20:57] In another sense, though, it's the people that Judas delivered Christ over to that delivers Jesus. [21:07] Because the chief priest here, the Sanhedrin, the religious leaders, take Jesus and they deliver him over to Annas and Caiaphas. [21:23] Mark 15. Let me just let you see it for yourself. Verse 1. As soon as it was morning, the chief priest held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and they bound Jesus and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate. [21:48] Verse 10. For he perceived that it was out of envy that the chief priest had delivered him up. So when Jesus tells the apostles the Son of Man is going to be delivered, he's going to be handed over, in one sense, that happens by Judas. [22:12] In another sense, it happens by the Sanhedrin and the religious leaders. In a third sense, who is it ultimately at the crucifixion that delivers Jesus to be crucified? [22:27] It's Pilate. Let me show it to you. Stay in verse, say in chapter 15. Go to verse 15. So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. [22:50] So Jesus says to his apostles, the Son of Man is going to be delivered, not meaning rescued, meaning handed over. [23:05] And who is it that's going to fulfill that? Well, Judas delivers Jesus to the people who came to arrest him. Pilate, they deliver Jesus into the hands of those who would try him. [23:23] Pilate, in Mark 15, verse 15, is the one who delivered him to be crucified. So go back with me now to our text in Mark 9, verse 31. [23:39] The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him. [23:50] Who are we talking about? Judas? Or are we talking about the religious leaders? Or are we talking about Pilate? [24:01] I think the answer is none of those. I think there is a deeper, more complete answer. [24:15] Let me give it to you. Acts 2. I'll just read it to you. Verses 22 to 24. Men of Israel, hear these words. [24:27] Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know, this Jesus delivered up according to... [24:47] Here we go. We're about to get Holy Spirit-inspired answer to who ultimately delivered Christ to be crucified. [24:59] This Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. [25:13] It is ultimately the Father who delivered his Son to be crucified for the salvation of all who would believe. [25:37] Jesus absolutely, unequivocally, did not die or was not crucified because of Judas. [25:47] He did not die because the religious leaders were against him. He did not die ultimately because Pilate pronounced a death sentence on him. [26:01] He died according to the Scripture, very simply, Acts 2 verse 23, according to the definite plan and the foreknowledge of God. [26:11] not something that God simply knew about, something the Father did. How do we know that? Isaiah 53, it was the will of the Lord to crush him. [26:29] Please understand this part of the Gospel. All of the men who had a role in his execution absolutely are held accountable for their real life decisions. [26:47] They did what their hearts purposed to do. We know that because on the cross, Jesus said, Father, forgive them, and you don't pray for forgiveness for people who are not guilty. [27:04] They are absolutely held accountable before God for their actions. Yet, ultimately, the cross is the work of God for the salvation of his bride. [27:20] The cross was not a mistake. It wasn't a lucky occurrence. It wasn't a case of a good man who was overpowered. [27:32] This is the will of God, according to Acts 2, according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. [27:44] Let me keep reading in Acts 2. This Jesus delivered up, according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. [27:59] Verse 24, God raised him up because it was not possible for him to be held. [28:11] When you talk about the cross, when Jesus tells his apostles that he is going to be delivered, yes, real sinful men will make real sinful choices that they will truly be accountable for, but what is the greatest, most complete understanding of the cross is this was the will of the Father to rescue sinners like you and like me. [28:43] This is why Jesus can boldly, prophetically, before it ever even takes place, tell his apostles what's going to happen. [28:59] Because Christ, according to Scripture, is the lamb slain when? Before the foundation of the world. When Jesus tells his apostles the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, there is a human element of that, namely Judas and the religious leaders and Pilate, but there is a more complete answer to that, and that is it was the Father's will. [29:33] Incidentally, in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the language and the word and the verb usage in Isaiah 53 uses the exact same word to describe the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. [29:50] What Jesus is teaching his apostles in the Gospel of Mark is just the same as had already been prophesied by Isaiah. [30:01] Isaiah. But the disciples didn't comprehend it. But to understand the Gospel, we start with this word, delivered. [30:12] And when you think of that word, I want you to think of this. This is the purpose and the plan and the will of God. Because on the cross, several things are going to take place. [30:25] One is our sin is going to be placed upon Christ. Another is that God's wrath for sin is going to be poured out upon Christ, which is why you and I are able to be forgiven and set free because our sin was not forgotten. [30:47] It was paid for. So when you share the Gospel, you remember to share that Christ was delivered by the Father for us that we could be saved, that God's grace would be displayed. [31:08] In Mark 9, there's a second word and that's the word death. Go back to verse 31. The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men and they will kill him. [31:24] They're not just going to beat him. They're not just going to harass him. They're not just going to torment him. They're going to kill him. [31:37] They've been trying to do this for a long time. All the way back in Matthew 12, it says, the Pharisees begin to conspire together how to destroy him. [31:53] They didn't want to simply make him be quiet. They didn't just want to imprison him. They didn't just want to discredit him. They wanted to destroy him. [32:06] And Jesus says, the Son of Man is going to be delivered and they will kill him. [32:19] And so, it will go like this. He will be betrayed by Judas in the Garden of Gethsemane. And they're going to then take him to Annas, the most powerful man in the land, retired high priest. [32:36] And they're going to take him from Annas to Caiaphas in the Sanhedrin. And they're going to break for a couple of hours. They're going to reconvene in the middle of the night and have another trial in front of Caiaphas in the Sanhedrin. [32:48] They can't put Jesus to death because they have to get Rome's approval to do that. And so, they're going to then take Jesus away from their religious Jewish trials. [33:00] And they're going to have to take him to these Roman legal trials. And they're going to take him first to Pilate. Pilate wants something to do with him. He looks for a way out. [33:10] The people say, you can't let him go. This man stirs up trouble all the way to Galilee. Pilate thinks he's got his way out because there's another tetrarch named Herod who's over Galilee. [33:22] And he says, well, you take him to Herod. Let him deal with him. Herod's been wanting to see him anyway. Herod takes him, mocks him, roughs him up, laughs at him, sends him right back to Pilate. [33:33] Pilate again tries to get out of it. The crowds will not relent. And they say to Pilate, you really have a choice. You can either save your career and crucify Jesus. [33:47] or if you set him free, you're no friend of Caesar. You will lose your status. Pilate will take Jesus then and give him the official pronouncement of death. [34:01] Ebus and Crusum, to the cross you shall go. And they will take him and he will hang on the cross. And from nine to noon, he will suffer at the hands of men as they curse him and pluck out his beard and seek to destroy him. [34:19] And then from noon to three, as the sky goes dark, the wrath of God the Father is poured out upon the Son as our sin is paid for. [34:33] And in those moments, the prophecy of Mark 9 completely come true as the Son is delivered into the hands of the Father who pours out his wrath on Christ the Son so that sinners like us could be forgiven. [34:54] And if you say, that sounds awfully serious and awfully intense, why the big deal? It's because you need to understand how holy God is and how utterly sinful our sin really is. [35:12] He was delivered and there was death. But Mark 9 thirdly gives us a declaration. [35:23] And that declaration comes at the end of verse 31. When he is killed, after three days, he will rise. [35:33] He will rise. This is such good news because this is telling us death is not the end of the story for Jesus nor for those who believe. [35:48] Because Jesus lives, you live. And those who are believers, death will not be the end of your story either. Jesus tells his apostles, I'm going to be delivered over. [36:01] I'm going to die. I'm going to suffer many things. But do not fear because though I will be killed, three days later, I will rise again. [36:15] Death will not be the end of his story. And for those of you who are in Christ, please keep this in mind. Death will not be the end of your life either. [36:28] You must remember this because this life, this body, will come to an end, but it will not be the end of you. The outer man waste away. [36:42] 2 Corinthians 4.16, it's just true. But it will not be the end for you, not for those who believe. In fact, not for anybody. [36:53] Those who don't believe will suffer for eternity in punishment for the rejection of Christ. Those who are believers enjoy all the beauty and all the joy and all the peace and all the thrill of heaven, which is beyond our ability to understand or even communicate. [37:16] Jesus tells his apostles, I am going to be delivered to death. I am going to die. But here's my declaration. I will rise again. [37:31] Now, if Jesus doesn't rise again, his opponents have nothing to worry about. In fact, if you're here today and you're not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, if Jesus never was brought back to life, you have nothing to worry about either because it's, it's a fraud. [37:58] There's no way out of this. There's no way that Christ can have any ministry or his followers have any influence if his body stays in the grave. [38:10] It would be over. And his own people understood that. Even his opponents understood that. Which is why they wanted to seal the grave and put soldiers around the grave because they were terrified someone might come and try to steal the body. [38:28] Everybody understood that the prophecy, the declaration of the resurrection is what everything about Christianity will hinge on. If he does not rise again, the Bible itself says we have no hope. [38:46] And if he did rise again, we have no fear. Because if he is who he says he is, this world can't touch us. [39:11] Kill the body, no problem. Present with the Lord. Lord. What can man do to me? Scripture asks. If the grave is empty, if Christ in fact did rise again, Christians have nothing to fear. [39:38] Verse 32 says, but they did not understand the saying. Mark 17 adds, they were distressed by the conversation. You just can't grasp Messiah dying. [39:58] It's all going to come down to one thing. Does Jesus rise again? if he didn't and you say, but it's still nice to gather with our friends and just believe a lie. [40:19] There's no life in that. If he didn't rise again and you say, let's just pretend that he did, then we are to be pitied above all people. [40:29] Turn to Mark 16. When the Sabbath was passed, Mary Magdalene married the mother of Jesus, and Salome bought spices so they might go and anoint him, and very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb, and they were saying to one another, who will roll the stone away for us from the entrance of the tomb? [41:19] And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back. It was very large. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. [41:33] And he said to them, do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen. [41:45] He is not here. See the place where they laid him. died. He died, and he was raised to life. [42:04] Which leads me to just simply one question this morning. Is that historical fact good news or bad news? [42:20] And the answer to that question absolutely depends on what you do in response to the gospel. For those who believe, what you have seen with your own eyes in the text this morning is the greatest news ever told. [42:41] because he was delivered, and he did die, but his declaration came true. And if you are in Christ, you have nothing to fear. [42:57] But if you reject the gospel, there is no other way. And may I with grace just be blunt and direct with you this morning not one person in this room ever would be able to stand before the Lord and say, no one ever told me. [43:21] Even this day, you have heard the truth. The life-giving, soul-changing truth that Jesus saves. [43:38] Jesus was delivered to die, and because he was, we who believe are delivered from our sin. [43:52] That is the good news of the gospel. And if you have never had a time in your life where you repented of your sin and asked the Lord Jesus to save you, would you even this moment, sitting right where you are, just in true honesty of your heart, would you just say to the Lord, have mercy on me. [44:19] Lord, I'm a sinner. I need salvation. Lord, I know I can't save myself. Only you can do this. [44:31] Lord, I acknowledge that I'm guilty, but I trust in the saving work of your Son on the cross. [44:43] Would you even this moment call out to the Lord, believing that Jesus is the Son of God, was delivered, was put to death, and he rose again. [44:59] for all who would call upon the name of the Lord in faith, they shall be saved. And you can experience this day, this truth, that he was delivered to die, that you would be delivered to life only in his name. [45:25] I'd like to ask you, if you would, to bow your head and close your eyes with me. We're going to prepare to serve the Lord's Supper. And ask the... [45:36] before you what do do it with your mar your friends with your friends and're they will or or your sc your follow your heart me or your heart or your heart or your heart or your heart or your heart or your heart or your heart fathers or your heart or your heart or fathers or your fathers your heart or fathers your fathers your forward fathers fathers fathers fathers